George Orwell (who is soon to have his statue erected outside New Broadcasting House) said 'Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.'
Education Secretary Michael Gove is bringing in a new school history syllabus. The story of Britain will be taught in chronological order from the first year of primary school to the age of 14, finishing with the election of Margaret Thatcher. The emphasis will be on facts and dates. There will be no more of those essay assignments that begin 'Imagine you're a slave bound for the West Indies ...'
Is it right to put Britain at the centre of the story and to mention foreigners only insofar as they have impinged upon our nation (and vice very much versa)? Or is it more moral to teach children the history of the planet because we are all citizens of the world?
Should history teachers be aiming to turn out good citizens with shared moral values? If so - whose values? Is it more important to teach national pride or national humility? Is an emphasis on 'cultural sensitivity' just left-wing propaganda in disguise?
And is it right that a politician should be able to dictate the history syllabus in the first place? Some of the precedents for it - in Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany and Mao's China - are not encouraging.
TRANSCRIPTION
Moral Maze: Should history lessons teach patriotism, national humility, citizenship or scepticism?
First Broadcast: BBC, 27 Mar 2013
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01rgj1v
PANELISTS
Michael Buerk (Chair)
Claire Fox
Giles Fraser
Matthew Taylor
Anne McElvoy
WITNESSES
Chris McGovern - Chairman, The Campaign for Real Education
Antony Beevor - Historia
Sir Richard Evans - Regius Professor of History and President of Woolfson College, University of Cambridge
Matthew Wilkinson - Director and Principal Researcher Curriculum for Cohesion
BBC RADIO 4 Credits
Producer: Peter Everett
Series Researcher: Kathryn Blennerhassett
Michael Buerk
Good evening, Michael Gove has a face seemingly made to stare out of posters, and his new glasses are slightly sinister in a retro kind of way, but it is still difficult to see the former panellist on this programme in the world of Big Brother. Certainly the education secretary is trying to rewrite history, or at least the history syllabus in schools, and it’s quite true that a slice of the history establishment regarded as an Orwellian attempt to control the past. What’s fascinating is how this ill-tempered tussle over what is to be taught raises big moral questions about what, not just history but education as a whole is for.
Mr Gove wants school history to be the story of Britain told in sequence with facts and dates. His critics see it as Anglocentric rope learning, insufficiently attentive to other cultures. One of our most distinguished historians has dismissed it as “history for football hooligans, preparation for a pub quiz.” Mr Gove’s supporters ridicule the present syllabus as long on bogus empathy and short on facts, producing children who think that they know what it was like to be a slave but are convinced that Churchill was a talking dog.
Behind this dust-up are unresolved arguments about the purpose of teaching history. Is it about identity or shared values? If so, what identity, which values? To instil national pride or national humility? Is it about us or the world in which we live? A framework of knowledge or a tool for sceptical analysis? Above all, who should control the past? As Orwell said “Who controls the past controls the future.”
It’s our Moral Maze tonight, the panel; Claire Fox from the Institute of Ideas; Anne McElvoy, Public Policy Editor of The Economist; Matthew Taylor, Chief Executive of the RSA; and Giles Fraser, Priest at St Mary’s, Newington, and radical opinionator at large.
Giles, what is education for - not education, history education in particular?
Giles Fraser
It is there to expand the imagination. I think that is the great thing that history does, I mean it can show us that the world is a bigger place than the sort of narrow, temporal slice of it that we exist in at the moment, and that there is just extraordinarily other ways of being.
Michael Buerk
Claire?
Claire Fox
I suppose it’s to introduce people to the concept of historical thinking, even though that sounds obvious. But you have to have a sense of chronology, periodization, timeline, and I think that that’s been missing recently. I do actually think that you need a framework on which you can handle all the analysis and the values and all the rest of it. So for me, you’ve got to be able to realise that the past was a foreign country.
Michael Buerk
Matthew?
Matthew Taylor
I think history can contribute to children’s moral development but particularly if it engages children, if it connects with them, and if enables them to understand the world they live in today. And I’m not sure that facts, chronology for the sake of it or nationalism really helps.
Michael Buerk
Anne?
Anne McElvoy
It’s about thinking about out of your own time, which is actually incredibly hard to do, and to do it with any useful result you do have to know some facts, be able to assemble some evidence, and then you can have interpretation but you can only really do it in that order.
Michael Buerk
Panel, thanks very much indeed there. Our first witness is Richard Evans, who is Regius Professor of History and President of Woolfson College at Cambridge. You’ve been pretty scathing about these proposed changes, why should they amount to education for the “football hooligan on the terraces”, I think was one of your jibes.
Richard Evans
First of all, these proposed changes I think are necessary if you look at the existing national history curriculum which, remember, only goes up to the age of 14, does not include GCSEs and A Levels (which are the province of examination boards) but the existing curriculum does have British history as its centre and it does have a chronological/
Michael Buerk
Sorry, the question was why you described this as education for the “football hooligans on the terraces”?
Richard Evans
Because the existing curriculum has not only British history as its centre (in key stages 2 and 3, 12 up to 14) but also has some history of other countries and of the world, Europe and the world as well. So it does, I think, teach children that there are civilisations, other countries, other histories, and the new one, Mr Gove’s proposal, doesn’t do that at all. It just looks at British histories, educating, it’s going to bring a generation of kids who know nothing about the history of other countries outside the UK.
Michael Buerk
Claire?
Claire Fox
I might come back to that Professor Evans but if I could just ask you the question we were asked: what’s the, very quickly dare I say, purpose of history education for you? What is the key thing it has to do?
Richard Evans
The key thing is to teach children to develop their own ideas, their own skills, reach their own judgements about the big issues in history, the big questions in history to make them, in a sense, capable of independent judgement as adults and to teach them something about the foreign country that is the past. To realise that there are other civilisations, other worlds, other ways of thinking and other ways of behaving. In that sense, to help them make them more tolerant but also reach judgements about what they think is good and what they think is bad. So I do think there is an element of morality in there.
Claire Fox
Yes, so when they grow up they can make those independent judgements but in order, in terms of we’ve only got until 14 as it were, is it not therefore until you’re 14 that we give them that framework of periodization - you know, the facts, the detail - the critical analysis happens later on. But you need something on which you can critically analyse, isn’t the core therefore what Gove suggested?
Richard Evans
Well no, because facts don’t have any meaning by themselves, they are always tied into interpretations and narratives. How are you going to test kids on their knowledge of the facts with which Mr Gove wants to pack the history curriculum? Do you have multiple choice tests? You know; the Battle of Hastings happened in 1066; b, 1845; c, 1688? There’s no other way of testing historical knowledge except in conjunction with interpretation and argument.
Claire Fox
But interpreting what, I suppose has to be my question because one of the things I’m concerned about is this sounds kind of like a social deconstruction class for 11 year olds. I mean how, seriously in terms of what we’re expecting kids under 14 to do, surely we equip them with (which I think Gove is saying really) a familiarity with the event, the periodization and the chronology.
Richard Evans
Of course that’s important but it comes together with interpretation and argument. You can’t have the two separated. You can’t teach kids facts then ask questions about them, they have to be taken together/
Claire Fox
[inaudible]
Richard Evans
No it’s not, it’s an absolute because facts are always tied to a narrative. It’s an absolute nonsense also that Mr Gove is proposing to try and teach 9 or 10 year olds extremely complicated things like the philosophy of John Locke or 5 and 6 year olds about Anglo Saxon history.
Claire Fox
But I think it’s an interesting thing that you think it’s difficult to teach them the philosophy of John Locke, which I’d agree, but you actually want them to have a sophisticated analysis of all sides of the argument and different interpretations.
Richard Evans
It’s tailored to the age. The current history curriculum is tailored to the age of the kids, the proposed new one is not. It’s too packed with facts, it divorces them from skills and interpretation/
Claire Fox
Skills, skills, skills.
Richard Evans
Yes, skills. The skills of historical analysis which is at the core of/
Claire Fox
Without the core of the - there is no point of the skills
Richard Evans
/recognising chronology and the influence of one event on another, or one thing on another. That is part of the skills that they learn, of course. The first thing they learn in the current curriculum is to distinguish between different periods.
Michael Buerk
Anne McElvoy?
Anne McElvoy
What’s wrong with the idea of history for a pub quiz?
Richard Evans
Because it’s not education.
Anne McElvoy
Why not?
Richard Evans
Because education is about understanding, it’s about learning. It’s not about wrote-learning of facts. Facts are important of course but not just by themselves. How are you going to test it? I come back to this, how are you going to test this?
Anne McElvoy
Yes but I think the problem with your position is really that you sound like there’s a sort of producer interest here. That you’re a professional historian who’s very high up level and you’re also surrounded by history students that are pretty high level, and therefore you want everybody else to approach history in this way. Now what is wrong with the Secretary of State in this case, or anyone saying that there’s just a basic story and there are quite a lot of bits in it that we think people should know about? After that you can then get into your argument about critical interpretation and many other things, but there is only so much time and there is only so much scope that you can put into this unless you are of course the Regius Professor of History at Cambridge.
Richard Evans
Absolutely, of course, but he’s packing far too much in. You know kids at primary school have one hour of history a week and he’s prescribing an enormous length of detail. Niall Ferguson has complained about this and said Michael Gove did not take his advice, there’s too much detail.
Anne McElvoy
I just want to get off practical curriculum issues. What is wrong, tell me again more clearly, (maybe I’m just being a bit dim here) what is wrong with people just knowing that certain things are connected, that there is a certain body of knowledge, facts and connections that you would expect them to know?
Richard Evans
You already conceded my point. You’re talking about connections and the connections are again between economies, society, culture, politics. They’re all kinds of connections that kids need to gradually, in an age appropriate way, learn about. Not just individual discreet facts that are listed in Mr Gove’s proposals
Anne McElvoy
Mr Gove isn’t planning to ban connections is he?
Richard Evans
He doesn’t say anything about them. If you look at the existing national curriculum/
Anne McElvoy
Well let’s give the idea the benefit of the doubt.
Richard Evans
No I don’t propose to give him the benefit of the doubt/
Anne McElvoy
You see, that’s the problem. Why, because politically you disagree with him?
Richard Evans
No it’s not because of that. He’s been attacked by many conservative historians. He’s been attacked by the entire historical profession; the Royal Historical Society, a well-known bunch of Marxists; the Historical Association; all the history teachers.
Anne McElvoy
What about you? There’s something that riles you particularly about this approach that doesn’t just seem to be about the facts.
Richard Evans
Yes. You may not know but I have two school age children who are studying history themselves at school and I’ve seen the way they’ve gone, the way they’ve been taught history which I think is absolutely excellent.
Anne McElvoy
Do you?
Richard Evans
It’s following the national curriculum. There are some problems later on, particularly in GCSE and A Level with the repetition of matter which I think is a real problem.
Anne McElvoy
So we’ve established that the system isn’t perfect as it stands/
Richard Evans
Don’t sound so surprised, you obviously haven’t read the OFSTED reportHistory For All/
Anne McElvoy
No but I have read what my children have been taught at school/
Richard Evans
…it concludes that history is in a state of rude - good health in schools. The idea that there’s too little British history taught is a myth, quote unquote the OFSTED report, it quotes many students it’s questioned in 166 schools. What do they say - what do they say they most like/
Anne McElvoy
I must move onto something…I really don’t want any more of the OFSTED report. If we can just get one extra question in/
Richard Evans
…what do kids most like about history? It’s the ability to make up their own minds about things.
Anne McElvoy
Just very quickly, if politicians aren’t the right people to write the history syllabus, who should write it and is there a built-in assumption here that historians know best?
Richard Evans
Yes absolutely because it’s not a political point. Mr Gove wants to write a Tory version of history, no doubt Tony Benn, if you gave him the power would write a labour version of history. History is not political indoctrination/
Anne McElvoy
So it’s the trade union of historians here?
Richard Evans
It’s not the trade union of historians, it’s the entire profession. The existing curriculum has broad support right across the board. The new one has total opposition across the board. There is something wrong here.
Michael Buerk
Claire?
Claire Fox
Can I just clarify then, don’t let the politicians write it, let the historians write it. Therefore historians you would say bring to it no moral prejudice at all or no political prejudice at all. I mean are you therefore saying that there is a set of historical ideas and facts that you can introduce to them?
Richard Evans
No, of course historians disagree but that’s one of the key things to get across to kids, that historians do have a point of view. It’s not a bunch of facts that they have to accept.
Claire Fox
So therefore I don’t necessarily know that I’d have academic historians write the curriculum because that is going to be as prejudice as anyone else, that’s all I’m saying.
Richard Evans
Oh no it’s educational professionals writing the curriculum. Of course they’re in touch with the academic professionals.
Michael Buerk
Sir Richard Evans, thank you very much indeed. Our next witness is Antony Beevor, the historian and author of course, and one of fifteen eminent historians who have signed a letter to The Times broadly backing the Gove proposals. What is history for? Morality, citizenship and knowledge of your own identity?
Anthony Beevor
None of the above. It is about understanding, and to achieve that understanding you’ve obviously got to have a certain framework. One of the problems, I think, with the current system is we have these modules which are all over the place. I mean you can go backwards or forwards or whatever. And one sees sort of, say in literature, I mean many people don’t know who came first, whether it was Shakespeare or Dickens. And I think this is a serious worry, one certainly needs that framework to start with and obviously we need a certain number of facts but the point is that the framework, the curriculum proposals made clear is that is the basis before you develop into depth.
Michael Buerk
Matthew?
Matthew Taylor
I think one of the things history gives children is a capacity to better interpret their own times. Now of course there will be many young teenagers in the country who assume that recession is a natural state of affairs. Now I would have thought in order to better understand our own economic plight there are two things which should be really interesting for even quite young children to study. One would be the US depression because that is the most similar time in history. It’s not the most recent history, it’s not chronological really, history is bumpy in that way. And secondly to understand that the economy is a truly global system, it is not simply the system that we look at from Britain. Doesn’t the Gove curriculum, wouldn’t it actually make it harder for children to have access to either of those things? Firstly it isn’t really about Britain and we’re supposed to study about Britain, and the second is that we’re persuaded to look at things from a British perspective rather than a global perspective?
Anthony Beevor
Well I think that most countries in Europe basically teach a core, if you like, of the national subject and then develop out from there and I think that the Gove proposals do that to a large degree.
Matthew Taylor
But they wouldn’t for example study the US depression particularly because it’s an event in America, it’s not an event in Britain, even though it’s a profoundly important event, isn’t it? The children really ought to, particularly at a time like this.
Anthony Beevor
I think that we’ll find when they get into the 1920s and one’s looking at the sort of wider perspectives, I mean talking about Soviet Russian and Germany and so forth, then that will become the natural place for it to come into. I mean I’m all for more international history even within this particular thing but I think it’s a question of time. I mean when you’ve only got an hour a week there have to be certain priorities.
Matthew Taylor
Well then let’s not then just talk about priorities, let’s talk about whole perspectives. Let’s fast forward thirty years and imagine the children in class learning about the Cypriot financial restructuring that’s taking place this week. Is there only going to be one interpretation of that, the British interpretation? Or did they - will they need to learn the Russian interpretation, the German interpretation, the Greek interpretation? People’s views of the events taking place are profoundly different.
Anthony Beevor
Sure but we’re talking here about current affairs.
Matthew Taylor
But I’m saying in thirty years, looking back on it. We need to understand that there’s not just a British perspective on something like this.
Anthony Beevor
Yes that’s certainly true but I think that when we’ve got, I mean here they’re ending history with the fall of the Soviet Union and I think that that is a fairly good cut-off point. But obviously the revolution that we were actually, we’ve experienced during that particular period, it wasn’t just the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Matthew Taylor
But that’s my point, my point is that historical events are subject to multiple interpretations. Now the point about the Gove approach is that you learn a lot in a shallow way rather than a smaller amount in a deeper way. I suppose what I’m arguing that when you look at an issue, like for example the global economic crisis of the 30s it’s only if you understand it in depth that you get to understand the history is contested. If you do it in a shallow way you only do it from one perspective and that seems to be the intention of this reform.
Anthony Beevor
This is surely coming along in later stages when they’re getting on to GCSE.
Matthew Taylor
So they can only really get their heads round the idea that there are different ways of thinking about things when they’re old?
Anthony Beevor
I think that they need to develop a certain basis of knowledge before they can go on then into depth.
Michael Buerk
Giles Fraser
Giles Fraser
This approach has been, erm, the pub quiz approach to history. If I just develop that pub image a moment, I have a problem with this, if you meet someone in the pub and they’re just banging on about how wonderful they are, how wonderful their past is, how wonderful all the things they’ve achieved is, you actually think they’re a bit insecure. But there’s something sort of - isn’t this the history of decadence about how we’re just trying to big ourselves up and actually it’s rather sad?
Antony Beevor
No, no, I don’t see any patriotism banging drum in this at all.
Giles Fraser
The story of our national story? And this is the sort of great patriotic/
Antony Beevor
But one sees, as they rightly say, it’s a question of the achievements and the follies. And my goodness there have been follies along the way we have committed and crimes as well, and those are all part of, if you like, that rich tapestry or whatever you want to call it.
Giles Fraser
But isn’t that because you agree with it? You fundamentally agree with the sort of ideology that’s impregnated in this/
Antony Beevor
It’s not an ideology
Giles Fraser
/about, you know, reading, writing and rule Britannia as being part of the narrative that’s going on here?
Antony Beevor
No, it’s absolutely wrong for teaching to be used for patriotism or anything like that. I’m totally against that. History should be there so that people understand how developments and particularly historical developments, whether it’s a question of what they call significant individuals and their decisions and whether it’s economic or social change.
Giles Fraser
And it can be value neutral? You can teach it value neutrally?
Antony Beevor
I don’t think that anybody can be totally value neutral but I think that one can certainly make the biggest effort possible to be value neutral.
Giles Fraser
But, so you’re going to - so if it’s not value neutral there will be a value impregnated into it within this narrative and people would see that about your history. You were an army officer in the Hussars, then that would - Queen and country would perhaps influence the in which you did history.
Antony Beevor
It may have influenced the way I did history in the past but I don’t think if you read most of the reviews, I don’t think that my books are judged in that particular way.
Michael Buerk
Antony Beevor, thanks very much indeed. Our next witness is Dr Matthew Wilkinson who is Research Fellow at Cambridge Muslim College and Principal Researcher on the Curriculum for Cohesion. Whatever is that?
Matthew Wilkinson
Curriculum for Cohesion is a collaboration of teachers, academics, employers looking to develop effective humanities education for young people in the 21stcentury.
Michael Buerk
And what does that mean actually?
Matthew Wilkinson
That means that humanities education that enables children to relate to themselves, their communities, their country and the wider world and be effective in the place of work where they find themselves.
Michael Buerk
So cohesion in terms of a multi-ethnic society, is that what you are saying?
Matthew Wilkinson
Yes, cohesion both internally in terms of who they are as people and in terms of relating to other people with whom they find themselves in society.
Anne McElvoy
So would it be fair to Dr Wilkinson to say that you think that citizenship and integration are two of the main purposes of history teaching and what it should promote?
Matthew Wilkinson
Yes that would be fair. I think, actually it’s not me saying that, when I’ve researched children what they are looking for from history is to have a strong civic understanding of the country and where we’ve got to.
Anne McElvoy
But I just wondered that you might’ve put the cart before the horse here in that citizenship and integration follow from an understanding of where you are now and how that relates to your past, your country’s past? That trying to put it the other way round is instrumentalising what should primarily be an academic study?
Matthew Wilkinson
Well, I think with any educational pursuit you need to have an idea of where you’re heading with any discipline. You need to have an idea of the human being or range of possibilities of the human being you’re trying to develop and history is no different from that. You need to know what you think an educated person gets through history and you need to head for that, so that’s why/
Anne McElvoy
Sorry, who needs to know and who needs to decide? It sounds awfully like you’ve got this purpose - application of history, and that would imply that you have a certain view, a certain kind of history you’d like taught.
Matthew Wilkinson
I don’t think that’s the case, I’m just saying that with any educational system or pursuit you have an idea of what an educated person is before you design an effective discipline for that person.
Anne McElvoy
And the idea that history is (a big argument has gone on tonight, really) how much is the body of knowledge, how much is the sort of critical tool, how important is it to you that it should provoke people to be critical, sceptical, even a bit cynical about the times they live in?
Matthew Wilkinson
Critical, yes, cynical, no. Sceptical, depends on what you’re looking at.
Anne McElvoy
So where would you like people to be more critical as a result of the history that they learn in school?
Matthew Wilkinson
Well, I think that we live in the digital information age, kids will leave school and at school, during their time at school, bombarded with different types of information of various degrees of reliability and credibility. They need to be able to decode what information is worth believing in.
Anne McElvoy
How on earth is history going to do that for them unless you’re assuming that you’re going to teach them a certain approach that says distrust the products of the capitalist system or whatever you might want to teach?
Matthew Wilkinson
I think that history, one of the great things that history can teach you is how people view events that really have happened, things that really have happened, change and also each event is viewable in a multiplicity of ways. That’s one of the great things that history can show children.
Anne McElvoy
Is that the only thing it shows children? Doesn’t it, apart from relativism, doesn’t it show something else? Might it not show that there are certain values that you find important that should be carried on?
Matthew Wilkinson
Well, yes absolutely. One would definitely want from examination of great events of the past (you know, Holocaust, Slavery, whatever it might be, British Empire) that kids interrogate their own values and they come to understand what they believe and why they believe it more deeply.
Anne McElvoy
But, sorry, there’s some tension there because on the one hand you want them to interrogate deeply, so I’m not quite clear how much you want it to be critical and how much you want it to knowledge based?
Matthew Wilkinson
I don’t see those two things as in any way opposition. You can’t be critical if you don’t have knowledge and you can’t have knowledge if you’re not prepared to be critical about it.
Anne McElvoy
So you quite like the knowledge based curriculum proposed by Mr Gove?
Matthew Wilkinson
No I don’t. I like the aims but the content I find unsatisfactory.
Michael Buerk
Claire Fox
Claire Fox
When you started you talked about the curriculum for cohesion as allowing children to relate to themselves, their multi-ethnic society we live in today, those kind of issues. That, I just wondered, that sounds like a citizenship relevance agenda there, it doesn’t sound anything to do with history?
Matthew Wilkinson
Well, I think the moment the state puts its hand on the curriculum you’ve already got a citizenship relevance being brought to bear. So if you have a national curriculum for history, which is designed by agents of the state, you’ve already got something that/
Claire Fox
There has been for quite a while, I mean, were you happy when for example, when he was Education Minister, Alan Johnson said that the history curriculum was ideal for teaching multiculturalism and antiracism? Do you think that was ok?
Matthew Wilkinson
What I think about those things is if you think about racism you can see by the study of history that the values that nowadays coalesce around racism are things that are actually very modern/
Claire Fox
Is history then only for studying today? That’s what I can’t understand.
Matthew Wilkinson
As far as children are/
Claire Fox
English Civil War/
Matthew Wilkinson
I mean no, that’s a very good example. As far as children are concerned you cannot understand the political complexion of what has arisen without understanding the events of the English Civil War.
Claire Fox
Is the purpose only that they understand the complexion of the contemporary world? That’s what I’m trying to ask you. You cited only “children say this”/
Matthew Wilkinson
Not only. I think children must be given the tools to decode their present as best they can.
Claire Fox
Is it not possible that we just give them the tools to understand how to think historically, to understand what happened in the past? I mean you’re just emphasizing today, we’re trying to talk about history. What would be rather contemptuous is to/
Matthew Wilkinson
No, what I - I think that a division I need to, not a separation, a distinction needs to be made between academic history and school history up to the age of fourteen which is what we’re talking about at the moment. 98% of kids that leave school, what one would want to leave with them is a great curiosity for the past, for what happened, and some core knowledge of history by which they can look around them and understand things better. I think that’s very important, and an academic historian would more get into the past for its own sake.
Claire Fox
So I cannot understand at all, therefore, why you are objecting to this particular curriculum because it seems to me that it gives exactly what you’ve just said. Post-fourteen you basically can go off and explore as much as you want but you have to have knowledge of past events, chronology and so on.
Matthew Wilkinson
Can I just quickly? Curriculum for Cohesion and I myself agree very strongly with the aims of this curriculum, all kids should leave with critical habits of mind and a strong civic knowledge of the country, however the way this curriculum is going about it in terms of the content is undeliverable, it’s unteachable and/
Claire Fox
That’s a practical problem and I/
Matthew Wilkinson
Well this is the curriculum/
Claire Fox
That’s a practical problem we’re talking about the morality of it. Just finally, just in terms of priorities it’s been called too Anglocentric, it says it doesn’t look at the world enough. I mean if you’ve only got til 14 and you’ve got to decide what to teach, how can you prioritise it other than by making certain decisions like that?
Matthew Wilkinson
Well, I can say that. What should have been done is that - what is absolutely core about the British national story of course should have been there but you cannot in todays globalised worlds. I think, as we speak, David Cameron I think is leading business leaders around India and the Middle East/
Claire Fox
We’re back to David’s politics, it’s got nothing to do with history/
Matthew Wilkinson
We’re talking about the world children are going to have to be effective in, have an historical understanding of, and that’s where this curriculum is a retrospective curriculum looking back to the world as it was back in the 1950s, not/
Claire Fox
It’s called history.
Michael Buerk
Thank you Dr Wilkinson, thank you very much indeed. Our last witness is Chris McGovern who is a former state school history teacher, more recently the head of a London prep school. More to the point, he’s Chairman of The Campaign for Real Education which presupposes that history teaching is not real. In what way is it not real?
Chris McGovern
Shall I give you an example? The most widely used textbooks in secondary schools at the moment deals with the 18thand 19thcentury and in order to denigrate this country it proposes that children investigate evidence, which is very much the fashionable approach. The problem with the evidence is that they manufacture it. So they look at people that are now dead and they say this is what they would say if the y could come back from the dead. So for example, Princess Lakshmi of India would say “The British shot cannon balls through us at point blank range”. They also have Cecil Rhodes and they invent what he said, so it’s the undead speaking. That’s fake history, it’s not real history.
Michael Buerk
Giles Fraser?
Giles Fraser
Do you think history should be morally neutral?
Chris McGovern
Yes, history is not a vehicle, it should be morally neutral as far as it can be.
Giles Fraser
What does that mean? Who gets to decide what’s in the story?
Chris McGovern
Right, history shouldn’t be a vehicle, for example, for teaching a particular attitude, patriotism, or denigration of the country. It shouldn’t be a vehicle for teaching anything.
Giles Fraser
But all stories are going to have a moral valance to them aren’t they? So the story of who chooses the story, the history story, how we tell our story has a moral valance to it.
Chris McGovern
Well this is the great thing about Mr Gove’s syllabus in fact. Though he sets out some landmark events, for example he covers ancient Rome and he covers ancient Greece (there’s a lot of things happened in ancient Rome and ancient Greece) and he leaves it to the teachers to decide.
Giles Fraser
So the teacher gets to tell/
Chris McGovern
The great thing is that this curriculum actually only sets out headings and it gives out much, much more freedom to the teacher than is currently the case.
Giles Fraser
But, I mean, you’ve just said earlier in your answer to your first question you know, people using history to denigrate this country which makes me suspect that you would like to use history to big up this country, to feel slightly better about ourselves, certainly not to denigrate it. Well there’s a, there at least is a moral position about the way that history is being used as a way of supporting a certain national story, a certain self-identity.
Chris McGovern
It’s a false assumption, I do not believe history should be used to promote patriotism. Nor do I believe it should be used to denigrate the country. Currently it is often used to denigrate the country.
Giles Fraser
But I think it’s dangerous because it’s smuggled in. You have this fact-value distinction. You think that values can be, that history can be taught without any reference to sort of, erm, value neutral and that worries me because when you present yourself as being value neutral it’s the best way to usher in values as if they’re not there. And there’s, every way you tell a story you’re actually emphasizing a particular thing. You’re emphasizing a particular world view and a particular sort of morality, and if you do it form the top, the bottom, you are inevitably talking about values.
Chris McGovern
People always draw moral points from stories. I mean, when we talk about Romulus and Remus for example, I mean we’ve not talked about five year olds who are the most important age group in my opinion, there are moral issues about Romulus and Remus but I mean children have to have stories. They have the same stories when they’re five as the Romans had, they tell the story, we tell the stories of Romulus and Remus. Children want those stories and of course you can draw a moral judgement from them.
Giles Fraser
Yeah but the moral bit doesn’t come after it, it comes before. Deciding what stories you’re going to tell in the first place. Do you have this idea that the facts are out there and you pick them up and you go away and decide which ones are of value? The ones you pick up, it self-displays a sense of what you think is important, whether it’s right or wrong.
Chris McGovern
And the great thing about Mr Gove’s syllabus is that he allows teachers to make most of those judgements. But there is a law that says, it’s a 96 education act, you must not promote, for example, political bias so we have protection by the law, from the law.
Giles Fraser
And the people I’m most worried by are the people that pretend they don’t do political bias and this is a curriculum written by a politician.
Chris McGovern
Well we don’t actually know whether he wrote it or not.
Michael Buerk
Matthew?
Matthew Taylor
I know this isn’t rally fair but can I ask you to make a choice between two views of history? Is history fundamentally a body of facts, is your view that history is a body of facts and we’re going to pour them into children? Or is your view that history is inside children and we need to show them, help them find out how?
Chris McGovern
History is an account of the past.
Matthew Taylor
That’s all it is, is it?
Chris McGovern
The unique thing about history, and it is the only unique thing, is that it is knowledge of the past. Everything else you can get from Hilary Mantel, Sleeping Beauty or The Hobbit. All these concepts of continuity and change of chronology, go for fiction. I’ve done research which proves that fiction is more effective and in fact in schools today we have teachers using fiction to teach the historical skills.
Matthew Taylor
So why do you think, I’m just interested, why do you think there has been a huge growth in interest in people’s family trees. Now they want to understand their history but they want to understand it because it tells them something about themselves. It’s the reason why people find it so fascinating is because history shines a light on who they are. Now isn’t that a reasonable way of thinking about history, that it’s about shining a light on who we are now, today?
Chris McGovern
History does tell us who we are, it tells us where we’ve come from. It’s like a route map to tell us where we’ve come from, then signposts are the landmarks of history.
Matthew Taylor
So let’s take something like the British Empire. So if you’re teaching history to a multi-ethnic group of students, Empire has made them all who they are in various ways, isn’t it inevitable that you’ll have to get into a whole set of debates about values and competing issues of history rather than say here are a set of facts from the British perspective?
Chris McGovern
I think we have, as I said earlier, we have to be neutral. I think there are big issues when we start talking about the Empire for example. I’ve had discussions with the black community about the role of Mary Seacole, who is in many respects a heroine for the black community but she wasn’t black, she wasn’t British, she wasn’t a nurse. And her personal views, for example, about the Turks, she calls the Turks “worse than flees, degenerate Arabs”. Now Gove’s got that in the curriculum, and that’s what Turkish children in our schools are going to be hearing about themselves.
Giles Fraser
You make an interesting point and no one is in favour of teaching bad history, and they start getting the facts wrong. You gave an example earlier, I think, of kind of rather crude ways of instilling empathy into children, and I think part of the Govian critique is this idea that history is about getting children to empathise with past figures is problematic. I would argue that actually one of things we do need children to understand really deeply in the 21thcentury, inter-connected world as it is, is this capacity for empathy. And one of the great things history can bring to us is this task of trying to understand things through two different, three different, five different perspectives.
Chris McGovern
I think you’re probably thinking very much of older children there. I think you/
Giles Fraser
No I think young children are fascinated by – if you say to young children, you know, let’s look at the Wild West. Whose side would you be on, the Cowboys or the American Indians? I think young children are fascinated by that.
Chris McGovern
They are fascinated by stories and they will form judgements. There’s nothing wrong with that but I think at the age of five and six and seven, children need stories, landmark stories which they will enjoy. In my own, with the History Curriculum Association has sent out an alternative to every school in the country which is much richer than Michael Gove’s.
Giles Fraser
I just want to get to the bottom of this as it’s come up a couple of times. I’d suggest to you that what turns children onto history is precisely the fact that it is contested, that you can have an argument in the class about it however old you are.
Chris McGovern
And how do you teach five year olds? I would suggest that you, I would advise you to come see me teach five year olds/
Giles Fraser
I have five year olds and I’ve actually seen five year olds, for example, taught philosophy. And they love debating issues, it gives them a sense they’ve got a stake in the assignment rather than here’s a set of facts established by other people cleverer than you and you’ve got to learn them.
Chris McGovern
Well, it isn’t like that at all. We need inspirational teachers and we need to enchant children. We need the magic of history and you get that from stories and narrative.
Michael Buerk
Chris McGovern, thanks very much indeed. Ok let’s draw some of these threads together. Our first witness Sir Richard Evans, Claire Fox, his idea was that history teaching, even for these young children, is about their ideas, their skills to reach their own judgements. How far did you go along with him on that?
Claire Fox
Professor Evans is actually very interested in the skills agenda and it’s kind of history as a vehicle for teaching analytical skills. I actually think that that treats history with contempt and ends up side-lining historical, chronological understanding at the expense of skills and this actually is the orthodoxy in schools. And so it’s kind of all about using the evidence so that you can show that, and so that’s one side of it. I genuinely think it’s quite interesting that he’s very worried (which I share with him) about the age-specific – can you actually deal with ancient Greece with seven year olds as maybe the curriculum suggests. It seemed to me that he was asking people; to have the developed insights of analysis and argument about historic periods and I think Matthew, you agreed with him. I mean let’s have an argument/
Michael Buerk
Hang on a second. Matthew might have done but Giles/
Claire Fox
You have to know who they are before you have the row about whose side you’re on.
Giles Fraser
What he was saying - this is a misrepresentation. What he was saying was quite clear and it was actually quite straight forward, it wasn’t actually all this stuff about analysis. The past is another country and the job of history is sort of like travel and it expands the imagination just like travel does, and that’s absolutely right. And the idea that it has to be other, it has to be different, and that is really, really important. One of the things we’ve got too much of, it’s all about us, it’s all about our relevance to how we are and I like the idea that it’s completely other.
AM
What worried me a bit about Professor Evans was, apart from the fact he seemed to have a fantastic overconfidence in what was being taught at the moment, but that’s a personal judgement, but I did worry a bit about this kind of protectionism of the historians because he really seemed, he got quite riled actually, he seemed to want to take ownership of that. Now, as it happens, I have doubts about how much politicians should control in all of this, or at least the idea that Mr Gove isn’t really trying to control it, I think is for the birds, he is. So I do have doubts about that but I also think I’m not totally sure that I just want this league of university historians. [Inaudible disruption] Hang on, but there is a balance here in what he seemed to be saying was this is what I find useful, this is the analytical approach that he wanted to promote. And one felt that anything else, including actually what the last witness said, Chris McGovern, which I rather identified with (I thought he put his finger on it), the route map, the landmarks, the stories, he didn’t have much time for any of that. And I think that was really the weakness in a particularly view of how to teach history. I felt he was a little deft and he might want to do it another way.
Michael Buerk
Matthew, Antony Beevor acknowledged that you can’t be totally value neutral but thought it was worth trying.
Matthew Taylor
It seemed to me that Antony wasn’t arguing really in essence, he didn’t seem to disagree with positions that I put to him. He just seemed/
Michael Buerk
No right thinking person could of course.
Matthew Taylor
He just seemed to say that until children are fourteen they can’t understand that things are complicated, and I just think that’s nonsense really. And I agree that facts report and I agree with Claire that if we’re going to understand Roundheads and Cavaliers we have to understand about the history. But the question is what is the access point for children? Is this access point learning the facts and then later on when they’re after fourteen you can say oh by the way this is argued about? Or is the access point to say here’s something that people have very different views about and we want to encourage you to get involved in the argument? Now Claire has used the phrase, on a number of occasions, the tools of thinking historically, now I think the tools of thinking historically should be given to children at the earliest possible age. We shouldn’t wait until they’re fourteen to say by the way all those facts we taught you, they’re all subject to quite a lot of disrepute.
Claire Fox
Well I think there’s this idea that what you do is you go in and you just announce the facts to children and you walk out of the room. I’ve been a teacher for years, I mean that’s not what happens. There are headings, you teach them. That’s the job of teaching but on Professor Beevor/
Matthew Taylor
Can you talk about how much you do Claire, because – The point is this Gove Curriculum it requires a lot/
Claire Fox
Time. I know there’s not enough time/
Matthew Taylor
Therefore it does speak to a shallow fact-based understanding/
Claire Fox
No. I think that there is a problem of time which is why I then think that you, at least in the time that you’ve got, you should give people a sense of chronology and history. That’s generally where I’m going. But just on Professor Beevor, I think the accusation against – levelled against Gove in this instance and in fact against Professor Beevor was this idea that if you support Gove that you’re a patriot, he wants to go out there and teach a nationalist agenda and this is all about bigging up Britain and all the rest of it. And he was simply saying, I thought, look I’m not trying to be silly about this, you will have interpretations all along the way but let’s at least aim for just simply giving people a body of knowledge on which you can then, for example, rebel. What I think is I got taught history as British Imperialist History which I was then able to go off and reread about and rebel against. At least I had something to rebel against.
Michael Buerk
Anne McElvoy, what did you make of the third witness Dr Wilkinson, and what, I think, one of the panellists accused him of having a rather instrumentalised view about an academic subject? He did actually say at one point that the purpose was to decide on what was the ideal person should be and then deliver that person, which sounded a little chilling but he was quite convincing in lots of ways.
Anne McElvoy
Well he was a polite instrumentalist, look he was teleological to – I think he had some very reasonable points along the way but ultimately I think he had this idea that it was a sort of designed system. That you decide the enlightened kind of citizen you hope would come out at the end and work backwards like some sort of raisonner in a Moliere play. And the problem that I had with him ultimately is if you said to him why are you teaching Romulus and Remus I would suspect that the answer would be something like you can better understand the Miliband resignation. He wanted everything to be about the present/
Giles Fraser
The problem is, you are absolutely right, it is about relevance. Everything had to be relevant.
Michael Buerk
He actually said Giles, didn’t he, that history was to help children decode the present?
Giles Fraser
Yes. No, I actually want it to be mystifying to them. I want you to do history of something that is so different they go: oh my word, you could live a completely different life in the middle ages. It’s not relevant/
Matthew Taylor
I want to defend the point which he made which I think is a very powerful point. Which is that any education system has to be based, whether it is implicit or preferably explicit, on some account of what kind of people we are trying to create through this process. Now there are children in schools/
Giles Fraser
That’s a bit chilling isn’t it?/
Matthew Taylor
No, no, no but it’s important. Giles, for goodness sake, it’s implicit in all education that we have some notion of what kind of development path we’re taking children on.
Giles Fraser
Why can’t it be that we want to create well educated young people?
Matthew Taylor
But the question is this: do we – there are young people in playgrounds all around Britain today having arguments about creationism because there are people from all different perspectives arguing about that. Now what is the most important tool/
Giles Fraser
At least it’d be a lively, intellectual playground discussion/
Matthew Taylor
That’s exactly the point. Are the citizens of tomorrow the ones we most want to be able to regurgitate a set of facts or are they the kinds of citizens that can meet people from very different kinds of cultures and perspectives, with different accounts of history and know how to have a civilised argument with them?
Claire Fox
The sneer, the regurgitation of facts, we would like young people today to be able to be factually accurate about things that have happened in the past and have some sense of it. And then they can develop the most sophisticated intellectual arguments later on. At the moment they haven’t got the facts so they might have lots of opinionated rants but about what?
Michael Buerk
Anne McElvoy?
Anne McElvoy
Yes [brief silence followed by laughter]
Michael Buerk
You were looking so awestruck I thought you had something valuable to add.
Anne McElvoy
It was just a moment of rare agreement between Claire and myself. Absolutely, there is a point where I do in the end diverge from Matthew. That there is just certain things I think are perfectly reasonable to be required to be known and many other countries do it. I don’t know why we’re ashamed of it. Thereafter you can rebel or be critical or you can just say ‘yeah, right’ and go on to something else.
Michael Buerk
Right, two seconds.
Giles Fraser
But dangerous people are people who just say they’re doing facts when they’re actually really doing values.
Michael Buerk
I thought that one of the astonishing things was that primary school children only get one hour of history a week. Astonishing. Well, that’s it for this week and the series. From our panel; Claire Fox; Anne McEvoy; Matthew Taylor; Giles Fraser; and from me, until the next series which starts in June good bye.
Credits
Chair: Michael Buerk
Producer: Peter Everett
Series Researcher: Kathryn Blennerhassett